False doctrines
Awhile back I posted a set of blogs titled What happened to the Christian Faith and a Part 2 within those two blogs I listed several things that Christians today either take for granted or just fail to do.
Apart from that list their are several false prophets within and without the “Christian” relationship as warned about by the Apostle Paul, people have fallen prey too, these ploys used by the devil to pervert the Word of God
The comparison to be made first is that of Christianity to Mormonism(LDS). The Mormon quotes will be in RED and the Christian in BLUE
The Early Mormon leader Brigham Young said ” Take up the Bible Compare it to the Religion of the Latter-Day Saints and see if it will stand the test. – From where I sit it does not stand the test at all.
But don’t take my word read for yourself: first we will look at the Book of Mormon(BOM):
- Mormons claim it as another testament of Christ Given by an angel
- The Mormons claim it is “the fullness and completeness” of the Gospel.
- The Bible was mistranslated and the BOM is the only correct manuscript.
- The BOM is the record of dealings with the Americas
That begs some questions;
- Why are the teachings of the Mormons not found in the BOM?
- If the BOM is the “fullness” of the gospel, why do Mormons need the D&C and the Peal of Great Price?
- Why does the BOM contradict the other 2 books
- Why does the book of Mormon speak of things such as horses(Alma 18:9) when there were no horses in America until 1492
- Why has it been changed some 3,913 times since 1830 if it is said to be the most correct manuscript
- Why are many text from the 1830s copy of the BOM taken directly from the KJV Bible if the Bible was mistranslated:
- Why is there no historical proof the Christians were in America at the time of the BOM
Now we shall see what the Bible has to say about scripture being given by angels. What does the Bible say about being inspired by God
- But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.(Gal 1:8-9) See also 1 John 4;1-3)
- All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness(2 Tim 3:16) see also (2 Peter 1:21)
See:
http://nathanaelsblog.wordpress.com/2009/12/14/by-the-grace-of-god/
http://nathanaelsblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/summing-up-the-bible/
http://nathanaelsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/gods-design/
I do not know why you say it is a false doctrine when mormons believe the same that you do but we have another book of our profits to also help guide us to our path to heaven. The profits teaches us how they lived there lives so that we can be better people.And the BOM as you call it has not been translated no 3,913 times. It has only been done once.That is how we know it is true.You are carzy for not catching something. You said there is no proff of christians on america back then.And you also said that there is no proff of horses until the 1900s.But the thing is we have the proff and instead of just looking up the word horse in the back of the book.Try reading the BOOK OF MORMON first. We have modern day profits to stay fit with what is a changing world. He is picked by GOD to make sure that we dress right, act right, and stay on our paths to heavan.The meaning of SAINTS needs to be your next topic. It does not mean stuck up like you probably think it does. It means set apart. Meaning we dont drink beer,coffee,tea, do drugs, and no premartial sex.Make sure the next time you talk about mormons you read up right before.
I would like to bear my testimony that I know the church is true and i Know the BOM as you call it is true. If you would like to try to give LDS a chance you would see that there is not much differnce and that you would begin to understand how everything is. Dont just read a few versus out of it and try to take the church down. Read the book.Understand the Book. Believe the Book. I will pray for you and your lost soul.And i say this in the name of JESUS CHRIST AMEN!!!!
Robbie
2010/04/09 at 01:37
I thank you for your comment Robbie, I caution you though do not assume anything assumptions are often wrong
I have read to BOM and compared it to the Bible and it is false on many counts
and research the LDS for many years talking to both mormon friends and relatives and Christian apologists alike
with respect,
I invite you
Do not lean solely on the teachings of your “leaders” but on what God shows you through his word
ask questions of your apostles, and other Quorum leaders.
Read the BOM again and compare it to the current LDS teachings and the Bible to see which one is true
Then do research on your own
with respect.
Nathanael
you will be suprised
Massey Nathanael
2010/04/09 at 11:07
I have read your comment.Number one I have the BOOK OF MORMON. I go to seminary every week day mornings.Today as is was in Sunday school. We were talking about Abraham and Jacob out of Genesis. Now how can you say that we do not read the bible when we have been studying in it for the past 3 months.THE BOOK OF MORMON is always refereeing to the bible. Again how can you say that we do not read the Bible. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is always asking God on what to do next. This is the same God that you pray to. Now why are you attacking another Christian Church instead of other religions. Do you not know that there is other religions on this planet. Oh and by the way it is not the BOM. It is THE BOOK OF MORMON.
Robbie
P.S I am surprised that another Christian church will attack another. But I guess this is how you act and who you are. And this is how your whole church is and i would be ashamed to be in that church or even to visit it.
Robbie
2010/04/11 at 13:32
Robbie, shall I give you one example found that is in error:
quoting Orson Pratt: We were begotten by our Father; the person of the Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous Heavenly world by His father; and again, was begotten by a still more ancient father and so on from generation to generation..
Now lets see how the book of Mormon compares
(Alma 11:26-29) And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/17 at 14:06
Only really dumb, ignorant persons would now still say that Moromonism is the same as the Christiian relgion as well.. it certainly is not.. it is another false Gospel
Mormonism is certainly based on another false jesus Christ..
thenonconformer
2010/04/12 at 01:36
I ask that in respect you back up what you have to say on this matter with scripture otherwise it may appear to myself and others that all you want to do is cause seperation.
but you must remember that you my friend were once lost as well(Romans 5:10)
thanks
Nathanael
Massey Nathanael
2010/04/12 at 13:37
Number one then on conformer. Have you even been to a LDS Chuch. You would see that it is just like yours if you even go to church. It is not another false Jesus Christ. IT IS THE SAME ONE.Or atleast the one i am talking about is the one that died on a cross for our sins. Now if that is not the same Jesus Christ than you are the one that needs help and if you dont find it we will certainly be looking down on you after I have when up to God.
Number two Nathanael. I dont have to back up on the use of scriptures because I read my Bible everyday before I read the BOOK OF MORMON and you know why.It is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now you say you go to Southern Weslyn University.I can also imagine you go to the church over there also. I read the Bible that has the same exact words in it as yours does. And if you say that I am wrong, Then you are wrong also.
I will be praying for both of your souls because it is lost and you need it because only stuck up Christians that think that Mormons is another false relgion would believe that. And then on comformer. You should also come to one of out church services and you also would see that it is the same as other christian churches. That is my chanllenge to you.
I would like to bear my testimony to you to that I know that LDS is a true Church of Jesus Christ and that the BOOK OF MORMON is another testament of Jesus Christ and that it is true.Read this book and let it tie end to the Bible especially since it is always refering to the Bible.
Robbie
2010/04/12 at 18:35
Robbie EVERYTHING worth spit should is worthy of being backed up in light of the Bible.
How can one claim Christianity and not live by the book that HE WROTE
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/18 at 14:28
Robbie, if you’d do your research somewhere outside of the LDS church, you’d find your revered Joseph Smith is a pretty shady character. Those papyri he translated, for example. He took advantage of the fact that nobody knew how to read ancient Egyptian at the time to make a “translation.” Nobody could contradict him at the time. But…oops! People later found the papyri after hieroglyphics had been deciphered! And it turned out he hadn’t translated it properly at all.
The Book of Mormon contains plenty of glaring historical errors that help to keep those who have not been indoctrinated in the LDS church from an early age from falling for that trap. The BOM borrows directly from the King James Bible, errors in translation and all. How do you account for this? It claims there were advanced civilizations living in the Americas…but there is no trace of these civilizations. It claims the presence of many animals, plants, and technologies that did not exist in the Americas at the time. How do you account for this without falling back on “it is true because the Book of Mormon said it” crap? That is not an explanation any rational person would accept regarding historical facts.
That is not to say the Bible doesn’t have it’s problems and contradictions too…I don’t really consider myself a Christian, in case you’re wondering, but that’s not what we’re discussing. I have problems with the LDS church because it is, to any sane person, clearly a sham founded by a very shady man. All the evidence not produced specifically do defend the Mormon church BY the Mormon church STRONGLY suggests that it sits upon a very weak, cult-like foundation.
Zorro
2010/04/19 at 19:32
All of your questions have adequately been responded to: Now, will you respond to the following or are you going to show forth your inadequacy as all other critics of Mormonism and refuse to respond to the information provided?
*Why are the teachings of the Mormons not found in the BOM?
First off, the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not that the Book of Mormon contains ALL of the Doctrines, but it is the Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel. What is the Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel? Salvation by and through Jesus Christ. Thus, the Book of Mormon calls men to repent, to separate themselves from the worldly cares and desires, and come unto Christ, to take upon themselves the name of Christ, and to become “born again” in where they are made a newness through the atonement of Jesus Christ. If you truly have read the Book of Mormon, you would have truly understood this message.
Here is an Article that addresses the concept of the Fulness of the Gospel in the Book of Mormon. It is written by Michael B. Parker. http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_Fulness_of_the_Gospel.html
* If the BOM is the “fullness” of the gospel, why do Mormons need the D&C and the Peal of Great Price?
Again, see above commentary to responding to this question, as well as the previous one.
Another aspect of this is that the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon divine revelation. Revelation did not end when Christ was crucified. If it had, then the New Testament is false and not based on “orthodox” scripture. Why? Because the established Scripture, and doctrines of the First Century is based upon the Septuagint and the Hebrew text.
His council to Timothy, the Apostle Paul writes that “ALL SCRIPTURE” and at that time, there was no New Testament. Yet, today, modern Evangelicals include the New Testament as part of Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 3:16. The issue here is that if you restrict Scripture as defined as that which is already established and revealed, then you have to also remove the New Testament. Why? The earliest known epistle of Paul are 1 and 2 Thessalonians. This is well after Jesus Christ. Paul did not even consider his letters to be “Scripture” at that time. It is only when the first attempt at an official Canon of Scripture took placed at the Council of Laodicea in 360. Then in 366-384, Pope Damasus made a decree of what is presently listed in the current canon of scripture. It is the Council of Rome in 382 where the official canon of scripture became a reality in Protestant and Catholic tradition and thinking. This canonization made the claim that the 66 books are the “authoritative” word of God. Think about this, Men declaring what is God’s revealed word.
* Why does the BOM contradict the other 2 books
This very same question can be asked why the Old and New Testament contradict one another? The Old Testament teaches that there is truly One God – this is known as the Shema. “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One.” Yet, in the New Testament, Christ does not only declare himself the Son of God, but also declares that he is the Great I AM – the God of Israel.
The Old Testament teaches that the Levitical and Mosaic Law are an Everlasting Covenant:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=Everlasting+Gospel&help=&wo=checked&search=Everlasting+Covenant&do=Search&iw=ot&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked
* Why does the book of Mormon speak of things such as horses(Alma 18:9) when there were no horses in America until 1492
Actually, this has been proven false from an Academic and Archaeological Perspective.
“Horses are mentioned only once in the land northward during the Jaredite period—that is, during the prosperous reign of King Emer around 2500 B.C. and before the great drought sometime in the third millennium B.C. (see Ether 9:19, 30—35). Since horses are not mentioned again in the Jaredite record, it is possible that they became extinct in the region north of the narrow neck of land following that time.” From Robert Bennett’s Article ‘Horses in the Book of Mormon’ http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=129
I will respond to the rest when I have more free time.
Timothy Berman
2010/05/18 at 23:25
The first question I have is why do you call me Inadequate when I do not feel the same toward you! I must question as to what your bishop would say?
—
THE POSITION of the Church, I thought men screwed up which would by your own admission make THE CHURCH wrong!!
I am tired of hearing THE POSITION of the CHURCH–what Does THE BIBLE say and not just one verse but the surrounding verses as well
____
It’s possible that horses in America become extinct? where are the fossils?
The Bible if read with open eyes; eyes that don’t read it hoping to find errors is coherent and does not contradict itself but it’s fluid and connective..
How do you read it? it sounds to me that you would go so far as to contradict your own prophet which would make you an apostate by definition?
and now with respect it late I am tired–
Nathanael
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/19 at 01:08
You have not adequately responded to the information provided. Take some time, think about what you are saying, how you are saying it, and then adequately respond to the information provided.
And, when I say that you are inadequate is because what you have posted here in your blog, has already been responded to. It is nothing more than regurtitated arguments that have already been proven false on many levels.
I do read the Bible with an open mind because I do believe that the Bible is not closed. That is neither here nor there but a ploy of fallacy to distract from the actual conversation.
Please address each point that I have brought up.
Timothy Berman
2010/05/19 at 01:29
1. This very same question can be asked why the Old and New Testament contradict one another? You assert then that Jesus is not God–Does this not contradict what your bishops and by extension you claim to believe? which would then make you an apostate within the church
and as for horses see my previous comment But that still doesn’t answer the question about the Iron tools!
2. Think about this, Men declaring what is God’s revealed word.–I was under the impression that the BOM was translated by men as were the D&C and the pearl of great price?
3. if the OT covenant is everlasting– Why does God say He will make a new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34
What about Paul statement in Gall 3:24-25
See: http://www.knowingscripture.com/The-everlasting-covenant.htm
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/19 at 19:52
You have also failed to answer the question: why is the BOM full of 1000s of errors!
and more to the point
the 1830 BOM is different in many textual ways from the Current BOM..can you explain?
or
Why are the current teachings of the mormons not found in the BOM
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/19 at 23:26
The Mormon Cult believes in the planet Coleon where they say Elohim had two sons Satan and Jesus who fought over the position of messiah to the world. To spite their MASONIC rites and rituals to be SEALED in the church, which all come from SATANIC WITCHCRAFT CULTS of the MASONIC WARLOCK CULT THAT WORSHIPS SATAN as Abbadon as given in the 33rd degree masonic oath, Now once sealed in the cult, you get special underwear which is really only Cheeze cloth, So now tell me again how the lying Horse thief Joseph Smith, A MASON WHO DID TIME IN JAIL FOR CONMAN AND THEFT, found golden tablets THAT Have never been found about places that IN NO OTHER WRITTEN RECORD EVER WAS, and could translate them WITH QUOTES FROM THE KJV BIBLE, and by the way, in doctrines and covenants, Mr. Smith claims to be lead by the Spirit and states that their are little men on the moon who wear stove pipe hats and smoke pipes? Hey How come NASA never release that film footage? THE BIBLE SAYS YOU SHALL KNOW A PROPHET BY IF HIS PROPHESY COMES TRUE. JOSEPH SMITH WAS A FALSE PROPHET BECAUSE HIS PROPHESY AND TESTIMONY WERE A LIE! No men on the moon until we got there.
Mormonism is the cult of sinful men which are all part of the STRONG DELUSION spoken of in the Bible, “BECAUSE THEY LOVE NOT THE TRUTH, THEY SHALL BELIEVE A LIE AS THE TRUTH” !
The ONLY TRUE FAITH of the BIBLE is the FAITH in SALVATION IN ONE NAME, That name is YAH! Yahshua the Messiah was YAH and foretold that this time would come. Rev. 18:4 COME OUT OF BABYLON MY PEOPLE. All religion is a CULT OF STRONG DELUSION! ONLY FAITH is the True way, and those who have the TRUE Holy Spirit of YAHWEH know HIS VOICE and HIS TRUTH.
REPENT and BE SAVED !
Daniel Merrick
2010/05/19 at 16:55
Your comment is ludicrous. Containing outright lies.
GySgt. DD Barton, Ret.
2010/05/20 at 14:20
Prove it.
Sha'ul Dag
2010/05/20 at 20:52
The Holy Ghost is the only legitimate verifier of truth. It is incumbent upon each person to read, study, and pray to know the truth of anything with a certainty. Attacking other religions and faiths is unChristian and counter-productive.
Any serious truth-seeker will first seek to develop a relationship with Christ and learn to communicate with Him through the Holy Ghost, leaning not to their own understanding. Truth, look for it where ever it may be found. It is easy to mischaracterize, misquote, mislead, ridicule and defame anyone. It is much harder to humble oneself and listen to the Spirit.
You would do well to concern yourself with your own relationship with Christ and not attack His followers who ever they may be and what ever they may believe. There are hundreds of Christian faiths and to claim that you are the only one that is right is funny. By what authority do you claim this? Your own understanding? The words of others? Is your testimony spiritual or intellectual?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints lays claim to having all of the scriptures available that Christ has revealed to man. We do not claim that all of the other Churchs are wrong but we do believe they do not accept all that God has revealed and continues to reveal. We do believe that God has restored the fullness of the Gospel as it was taught to Adam and all the other prophets down through time.
We believe the Bible to be the Word of God insofar as the words and meaning were translated correctly. We believe important points were either left out or misunderstood by uninspired translations. This is obvious just from studying subsequent translations of the original Greek text it was written in. We are not alone in this position.
We believe the Book of Mormon to be a record of the People who inhabited this continent from 600 BC to 400 AD. We believe it is a second witness of Jesus Christ and His ressurrection. We believe that the Book of Mormon people were the other sheep that Christ said he needed to visit. By the word of two witnessess shall every word of God be established.
The final judgement is what we all need to concern ourselves with. We are not here to save one another but to save ourselves by learning the truth and testifying of what we know to be true then teaching others who are humbly seeking, how to know for themselves. Brow beating and scripture bashing is pointless and drives away the spirit with conteniton.
Semper Fi,
Gunny Barton, Ret.
GySgt. DD Barton, Ret.
2010/05/20 at 14:17
Gunny,
by what authority? I speak in the with the words of Christ(Luke 15:21)
I daresay that my faith in Christ is also secure–I also daresay that attacking other faiths is NOT unchristian–my love for people stems out of my love for God it is
then my privilege; no my commission, to spread that love in the TRUTH Titus 1:13-14) gives command that I do this
You state that the LDS do not claim that other Churches are wrong just not listening to what God has reveled? By that admission churches are wrong!!
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/20 at 17:25
Massey Nathanael:
1. This very same question can be asked why the Old and New Testament contradict one another? You assert then that Jesus is not God–Does this not contradict what your bishops and by extension you claim to believe? which would then make you an apostate within the church
Timothy Berman:
It always amazes me how critics misquote someone, and then attempt to reason out of that misquotation, or out of context statement. Here is what I said Massey:
* Why does the BOM contradict the other 2 books (Massey’s Question)
This very same question can be asked why the Old and New Testament contradict one another? The Old Testament teaches that there is truly One God – this is known as the Shema. “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One.” Yet, in the New Testament, Christ does not only declare himself the Son of God, but also declares that he is the Great I AM – the God of Israel (Timothy’s Response in Context).
I never asserted that Jesus Christ is not God. What I am asserting is that Jesus Christ IS YAHWEH – Yeshua and the God of Israel. Therefore, your conclusion is false, and the fact that you have taken the liberty to misquote me shows your lack of intellectual honesty.
Deuteronomy 6:4 says this Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai ehad Transliterated – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One”. This is an affirmation of pure monotheistic belief. There is no Trinitarian construct in the Jewish Shema. Modern Christian thinkers use this verse as a proof text for Monotheism, but from a modern perception of Trinitarian Monotheism and not a Jewish Monotheism. When a Jew affirms that there is One God, they specifically mean that to Ancient Israel, YHWH is the One True God.
When Moses came face to face with Yeshua, he was told that Yeshua is the Great I AM.
When Christ spoke to the First Century Jews, he told them that “…before Abraham was I AM.” Hebrews 1 states that Christ created all things, both in Heaven and Earth, so also Colossians.
Yet, you have falsely attributed a false conclusion that I declared that Jesus is not God. Nowhere did I state this. Not even hinted at it.
What I did state, is that when you look at the Old Testament doctrine on God, and take into account of Ancient Israel’s belief about God, examine modern archaeology into the Ancient Near East, you will discover that Ancient Israel was more Henotheistic than they were Monotheistic. YHWH, to the Ancient Israel and Hebrew was the Son of the Most High. This is reflective in Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Job 1 and 2, Psalm 82:6. Christ himself declared that while he and the father are one, he referred to himself and his father as separate and distinct person’s and beings. Christ prayed several times to his Father.
Christ stated that he does the will of His Father. He, Christ, is God, but not The Father. Christ is subordinate to the Will of the Father:
26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].
While on the Cross, Christ declared that he committed his spirit into the hands of the Father:
“Father (Abba), into Your hands I commit My spirit” (Lk 23:46).
Timothy Berman
2010/05/20 at 16:31
To misinterpret Sh’ma, does no justice first of all. Yahweh is Echad. It is because of the Ruach HaKodesh that this is possible. To say there is a contradiction between the Tanach, and B’riet Chadasha, because YahShua walked the earth, is to limit Yahweh. It is to say that Yahweh couldn’t have appeared as a burning bush to Moshe either, because Yahweh is Echad. He is omnipresent, and he can manifest himself into whatever he pleases.
Secondly, All of Christianity and the majority of it’s denominations are based on false doctrines, so to argue who’s false doctrine is truer than the others false doctrine, is ridiculous to say the least.
Thirdly, ALL original Scripture was written by Jews in Hebrew/Aramaic. NOT Greek!! It is forbidden for Jews to write any Holy scroll in any language other than Hebrew. Thousands of years of tradition which was passed from Yahweh to the Israelite, did not change just because Greek was the common language of the Goyim while the Scriptures were written. Yahweh has commanded us numerous times NOT to do as the Goyim, but to follow his word.
Sha'ul Dag
2010/05/20 at 21:21
Sha’ul
Whats gets me is all the people that say it’s “anti-believer’ to attack another religion when that’s exactly what many of the mormon comments on this blog are doing
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/20 at 21:43
Nate,
I will attack all man made doctrines. There is no replacement for Scripture, and ALL of the modern and foundational christian doctrines are false. They do not match up to Scripture at all. Even the name “Jesus” is a false name. YahShua is a Jew, and he has a Hebrew name. He is not Greek, he is not Roman, He is a Jew. His name is YahShua.
The problem with today’s church, is the fact that just about every pastor teaches tradition and not Scripture from the pulpit. There are many out there who completely misquote Scripture all together too. Why is this?? It is because the church of Rome (The foundation of Christianity), rewrote Scripture in order to fit their false religion into it, and those false teachings have become modern tradition and is believed to be Holy, even though NONE of it is based in Scripture.
People run around with Greco-Roman translations of the Bible (Which are false doctrine), and declare that the truth is within those translations. When you compare those to the original Hebrew based translations, you get to see the massive deception that has been put forth by the church and their rewritten Bibles. A narrow gate is not one in which two billion people will travel through.
Sha'ul Dag
2010/05/20 at 22:30
I wasn’t talking about you! I was referring to the mormons that feel the need to criticize without the least bit of a coherent argument
I know why you said what you said and thanks..
What I fail to understand is why every church, synagogue or whatever is claimed an apostate by the mormons, Hang with me for a sec..
according to the mormons every man made made doctrine is wrong; the book of mormon was translated by a man as I am assuming were the creed so by their own admission wouldn’t that also make the mormons wrong?
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/20 at 22:35
You are right on with that comparison to what they say, and what they do. You have to understand, the Mormons believe they are “Little Gods”, and this lends to egotistical and unHoly judgment of all others. They have exalted themselves above all other people and beliefs, while not even seeing their own hypocrisy. Someone from the church of satan can fervently defend his or her religion, but it does not make it right. Same goes with mormons, catholics, all denominations of christianity, all but one variety of Judaism, hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, islam, and all of the other pagan based and/or influenced religions.
The truth in Scripture is all that matters, and it cannot be found in the BOM, Q’aran, Greco/Roman Bible, or any other writings that contradict the truth of Scripture. Leading a clean life while ignoring Torah, and ignoring the building of one’s relationship with Messiah, will get a person into the same place that a unrepentant serial killer will be in when YahShua passes his judgment.
Following the teachings of Romans 11, John 1, Matthew 5, Matthew 7, etc…… Proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that ALL people are to follow Torah, because YahShua IS Torah. It is right there for all to see. If a lie is said enough times, it will eventually be considered truth. This is what we have here, Plain and Simple.
Sha'ul Dag
2010/05/20 at 23:41
Massey Nathanael:
I was referring to the mormons that feel the need to criticize without the least bit of a coherent argument
Timothy Berman:
Do not deceive your readers when in reality the criticism is squarely upon your shoulders.
Now, if you are talking about some who are criticizing your arguments and exposing them as false and presumptious, then this is part of Critical Thinking. In reality, I have provided coherent reasoning against some of your points.
Yet, you have not responded coherently to those. You are insisting that your arguments is without error, and without basis on logical fallacy. Until you adequately and coherently respond to what is already answered, then the one who is not participating in a coherent argument is you. You are the one refusing to answer the response. It is you who are making critical conclusions that are not based on facts, but opinion.
Massey Nathanael:
according to the mormons every man made made doctrine is wrong
Timothy Berman:
Where do Mormon’s say that every man made doctrine is wrong? No, what the Latter-day Saint Christian faith say is that creedal Christianity is wrong because there is substantial evidence to show forth that many of the creeds of Christianity is based upon paganistic and Greek Philosophy. This can be defended and accurately described by analyzing historical accounts, and context.
Until you are willing to address the specific issue and discuss these things coherently, you are showing forth your lack of credibility and are committing intellectual suicide.
It is blatantly apparent that you do not want coherent discussions, but would rather hold onto arguments that have already been refuted respectively and adequately.
Timothy Berman
2010/05/21 at 10:52
if you will read my comments above you will see that I gave responded to you with coherent question(s) which you can’t answer
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/21 at 12:53
Massey,
No, here is the comments that I posted THAT YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED TOO. Especially the first one because if you had adequately and coherently responded, then you would not have asked the same question about the Book of Mormon and why it does not contain “ALL OF MORMON DOCTRINE”.
So, here is what I initially responded and ask that you coherently respond to with adequate, intellectual, and logical reasoning. So far, you have not substantiated anything, except your own personal opinion.
*Why are the teachings of the Mormons not found in the BOM?
First off, the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not that the Book of Mormon contains ALL of the Doctrines, but it is the Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel. What is the Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel? Salvation by and through Jesus Christ. Thus, the Book of Mormon calls men to repent, to separate themselves from the worldly cares and desires, and come unto Christ, to take upon themselves the name of Christ, and to become “born again” in where they are made a newness through the atonement of Jesus Christ. If you truly have read the Book of Mormon, you would have truly understood this message.
Here is an Article that addresses the concept of the Fulness of the Gospel in the Book of Mormon. It is written by Michael B. Parker. http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_Fulness_of_the_Gospel.html
* If the BOM is the “fullness” of the gospel, why do Mormons need the D&C and the Peal of Great Price?
Again, see above commentary to responding to this question, as well as the previous one.
.
Another aspect of this is that the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon divine revelation. Revelation did not end when Christ was crucified. If it had, then the New Testament is false and not based on “orthodox” scripture. Why? Because the established Scripture, and doctrines of the First Century is based upon the Septuagint and the Hebrew text.
His council to Timothy, the Apostle Paul writes that “ALL SCRIPTURE” and at that time, there was no New Testament. Yet, today, modern Evangelicals include the New Testament as part of Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 3:16. The issue here is that if you restrict Scripture as defined as that which is already established and revealed, then you have to also remove the New Testament. Why? The earliest known epistle of Paul are 1 and 2 Thessalonians. This is well after Jesus Christ. Paul did not even consider his letters to be “Scripture” at that time. It is only when the first attempt at an official Canon of Scripture took placed at the Council of Laodicea in 360. Then in 366-384, Pope Damasus made a decree of what is presently listed in the current canon of scripture. It is the Council of Rome in 382 where the official canon of scripture became a reality in Protestant and Catholic tradition and thinking. This canonization made the claim that the 66 books are the “authoritative” word of God. Think about this, Men declaring what is God’s revealed word.
* Why does the BOM contradict the other 2 books
This very same question can be asked why the Old and New Testament contradict one another? The Old Testament teaches that there is truly One God – this is known as the Shema. “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One.” Yet, in the New Testament, Christ does not only declare himself the Son of God, but also declares that he is the Great I AM – the God of Israel.
The Old Testament teaches that the Levitical and Mosaic Law are an Everlasting Covenant:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=Everlasting+Gospel&help=&wo=checked&search=Everlasting+Covenant&do=Search&iw=ot&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked
* Why does the book of Mormon speak of things such as horses(Alma 18:9) when there were no horses in America until 1492
Actually, this has been proven false from an Academic and Archaeological Perspective.
“Horses are mentioned only once in the land northward during the Jaredite period—that is, during the prosperous reign of King Emer around 2500 B.C. and before the great drought sometime in the third millennium B.C. (see Ether 9:19, 30—35). Since horses are not mentioned again in the Jaredite record, it is possible that they became extinct in the region north of the narrow neck of land following that time.” From Robert Bennett’s Article ‘Horses in the Book of Mormon’ http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=129
Timothy Berman
2010/05/21 at 13:05
why just repeat what you have already stated?; Can you not answer my questions?
———————-
Can you not show fossils that prove Horses or metal tools were in America
Can you not responded to what I said about the convents?
Can you not explain the hundreds of textual plagiarisms in the Book of Mormons
Can you not explain why the current teaching of the mormon church are not in the BOM.
was Ezra Taft wrong? he said “the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 20:9).
What about Joseph Smith “–I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
—
I
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/21 at 14:11
Can you not explain why the current teaching of the Mormon Church are not in the Book of Mormon?
This question presumes that the Latter-day Christian faith does not teach the principles of the Book of Mormon. Your vagueness is very deceptive. It is a predominate Anti-Mormon tactic. And, in fact, this is not your original question and criticism that I responded too.
Here are your specific criticisms and arguments.
1 – from your initial post “Why are the teachings of the Mormon’s not found in the Book of Mormon?” nothing regarding “current teachings”.
Yet, despite this, here is my response that you keep evading and refuse to engage conversation in:
*Why are the teachings of the Mormons not found in the BOM?
First off, the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not that the Book of Mormon contains ALL of the Doctrines, but it is the Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel. What is the Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel? Salvation by and through Jesus Christ. Thus, the Book of Mormon calls men to repent, to separate themselves from the worldly cares and desires, and come unto Christ, to take upon themselves the name of Christ, and to become “born again” in where they are made a newness through the atonement of Jesus Christ. If you truly have read the Book of Mormon, you would have truly understood this message.
Here is an Article that addresses the concept of the Fulness of the Gospel in the Book of Mormon. It is written by Michael B. Parker.
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_Fulness_of_the_Gospel.html.
* If the BOM is the “fullness” of the gospel, why do Mormons need the D&C and the Peal of Great Price?
Again, see above commentary to responding to this question, as well as the previous one.
Another aspect of this is that the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon divine revelation. Revelation did not end when Christ was crucified. If it had, then the New Testament is false and not based on “orthodox” scripture. Why? Because the established Scripture, and doctrines of the First Century is based upon the Septuagint and the Hebrew text.
His council to Timothy, the Apostle Paul writes that “ALL SCRIPTURE” and at that time, there was no New Testament. Yet, today, modern Evangelicals include the New Testament as part of Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 3:16. The issue here is that if you restrict Scripture as defined as that which is already established and revealed, then you have to also remove the New Testament. Why? The earliest known epistle of Paul are 1 and 2 Thessalonians. This is well after Jesus Christ. Paul did not even consider his letters to be “Scripture” at that time. It is only when the first attempt at an official Canon of Scripture took placed at the Council of Laodicea in 360. Then in 366-384, Pope Damasus made a decree of what is presently listed in the current canon of scripture. It is the Council of Rome in 382 where the official canon of scripture became a reality in Protestant and Catholic tradition and thinking. This canonization made the claim that the 66 books are the “authoritative” word of God. Think about this, Men declaring what is God’s revealed word.
This argument is refuted several times over and yet you ignore the facts, and the way you are twisting this.
Let me state it as simple as I can for you.
No one ever stated that the Book of Mormon contained all the restored doctrines of Jesus Christ. What is stated, is that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel.
What is the Gospel? The Good News. What is the Good News? That Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God who came and provided the necessary atonement for mankind to receive a full pardon of their sins.
This is the Fulness of the Gospel. It is not about whether or not there is a trinity. It is not about whether or not we are saved by Grace alone. The Fulness of the Gospel is about Jesus Christ and by which mankind is to receive salvation, redemption, and the resurrection to eternal Life.
1 Ne. 11: 33 he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins.
2 Ne. 2: 7 he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin.
2 Ne. 9: 7 it must needs be an infinite atonement.
2 Ne. 10: 25 may God raise you . . . from everlasting death by the power of the atonement.
2 Ne. 11: 5 great and eternal plan of deliverance.
Jacob 4: 11 reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ.
Mosiah 3: 16 blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.
Mosiah 4: 6 come to a knowledge of . . . atonement which has been prepared.
Mosiah 13: 28 were it not for the atonement . . . they must unavoidably perish.
Mosiah 14: 10 thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.
Alma 7: 11 take upon him the pains and the sicknesses.
Alma 34: 8 he shall atone for the sins of the world.
Alma 42: 23 the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection.
Hel. 5: 9 saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.
3 Ne. 11: 14 God of the whole earth . . . slain for the sins of the world.
Moro. 8: 20 setteth at naught the atonement.
Moro. 10: 33 sanctified . . . through the shedding of the blood.
2 Ne. 2: 9 make intercession for all.
2 Ne. 9: 5 suffereth himself to . . . die for all men.
Jacob 4: 11 reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ.
Mosiah 3: 9 salvation . . . through faith on his name.
Mosiah 12: 21 publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings.
Mosiah 15: 1 shall redeem his people.
Mosiah 15: 9 satisfied the demands of justice.
Mosiah 18: 2 (3 Ne. 9: 17) redemption . . . through the . . . death of Christ.
Alma 5: 27 Christ . . . redeem his people from their sins.
Alma 22: 14 sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins.
Alma 42: 15 God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy.
3 Ne. 9: 17 by me redemption cometh.
3 Ne. 11: 11 taking upon me the sins of the world.
3 Ne. 15: 5 I have come to fulfil the law.
Ether 3: 14 in me shall all mankind have light.
Rev. 5: 9 thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us.
2 Ne. 1: 15 Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell.
2 Ne. 2: 6 redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah.
2 Ne. 11: 2 he verily saw my Redeemer.
Mosiah 15: 10 his soul has been made an offering for sin.
Mosiah 15: 24 have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.
Alma 7: 13 Son of God suffereth according to the flesh.
Alma 9: 27 And behold, he cometh to redeem those who will be baptized.
Alma 11: 40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people.
Alma 42: 15 God himself atoneth for the sins of the world.
Hel. 5: 9 Jesus Christ, who shall come . . . to redeem the world.
Hel. 14: 16 redeemeth all mankind from . . . spiritual death.
Hel. 14: 17 Christ redeemeth . . . bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.
3 Ne. 9: 17 by me redemption cometh.
3 Ne. 11: 11 glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins.
Ether 3: 14 I am he who was prepared . . . to redeem my people.
1 Ne. 13: 40 Lamb of God is the Son . . . the Savior.
1 Ne. 21: 26 (1 Ne. 22: 12) I, the Lord, am thy Savior and thy Redeemer.
2 Ne. 6: 17 Mighty God shall deliver his covenant people.
2 Ne. 31: 13 following your Lord and your Savior.
Mosiah 3: 20 knowledge of the Savior shall spread.
Hel. 14: 15 must die that salvation may come.
Morm. 3: 14 forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
All of these passages of scripture in the Book of Mormon testify to the Mission, the Person, and the Purpose of Jesus Christ. It is truly Another Testament of Jesus Christ, because it Testifies of Christ, and it testifies specifically that Jesus Christ is the redeemer and Savior who brings about the necessary Atoning Sacrifice.
That is the purpose of the Book of Mormon. Those who do not see this, miss this. Therefore, your Anti -Mormon Argument is based on false presumptions and is fallacious in an attempt to say what the Book of Mormon never says, nor what any leader has ever claimed it to say.
This answers your question. Yet, you refuse because you refuse out of your own hard heartedness and deceptful soul. The truth is that Jesus is the Christ, and the Book of Mormon testifies to this reality. Deny the Book of Mormon, and you deny its testimony of Jesus Christ, thereby you are denying the purpose, person, and reality of Christ and his redemption of mankind.
Now, I dare you to coherently and adequately respond to how the Book of Mormon DOES NOT Testify of Christ, when the Testimony is strong and points to the reality and affirmation that Christ is the redeemer of humanity.
Timothy Berman
2010/05/21 at 15:47
Can you not explain the hundreds of textual plagiarisms in the Book of Mormons?
Michael R. Ash deals with this in this article:
The King James Bible and the Book of Mormon
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/King_James_Bible_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.pdf
And here in this article:
Book of Mormon Criticism:
http://www.mormonfortress.com/changeb3.html This is a good article because it discusses the fact that there are just as many significant changes in the Bible as well.
Timothy Berman
2010/05/21 at 16:19
Berman-Can you not explain the hundreds of textual plagiarisms in the Book of Mormons?
Me I didn’t ask that question of Mr.Ash I ASKED YOU
Massey Nathanael
2010/07/26 at 18:43
Why is it that mormons will only look at mormon writers? isn’t that kinda biased
Massey Nathanael
2010/05/23 at 13:46
Massey Nathanael:
Why is it that mormons will only look at mormon writers? isn’t that kinda biased?
Timothy Berman:
Actually, yes and no. It is biased because there is not one single person who can claim 100% unbiaseness. No, because, this is a logical fallacy to claim that one will not consider Mormon Writer’s and Apologists as objective and credible witnesses. Yet, this is a problem with critic’s of the Latter-day Saint Christian faith. They want Mormon’s to prove and respond to their answers, and when they do, the critics are quick to point out “see, he is referring to other Mormon’s and therefore is referring to biased information”. This is a logical fallacy called – Circumstantial Ad Hominem, a logical fallacy known as Ad Hominem in general.
What this means is that the critic claims the argument is unproven because “Mormon Apologists” have to say things to attempt a reasonable argument and therefore refuse to consider the points made in response to the critic’s claims.
This is a prime example that critics will continue spreading their false arguments and demand that Mormon’s prove them wrong and when the critic is proven wrong, the critic quickly denounces the argument on the basis of the fact that the person defending the Mormon Position is a Mormon.
Timothy Berman
2010/05/23 at 21:27
Berman-No, because, this is a logical fallacy to claim that one will not consider Mormon Writer’s and Apologists as objective and credible witnesses.
Me-Perhaps they would be considered credible witness if they would look at the Bible IN CONTEXT instead taking a single verse here and there and twisting it to fit their own humanistic views
perhaps they would be considered credible if they would use other sources to instead of the “canned” stumps that they have used for decades
on the other myself and others on this blog have used both Christian and mormon teachings to show the fallacies within the circular logic of the mormons
Massey Nathanael
2010/07/26 at 18:41
Now, I dare you to coherently and adequately respond to how the Book of Mormon DOES NOT Testify of Christ, when the Testimony is strong and points to the reality and affirmation that Christ is the redeemer of humanity- Timothy Berman
This I will do, as well as well as answer the mormons perversion of being made like Christ. The Book of Mormon rejects Trinitarinisim. Thus it rejects the fact that Christ can be the atonement for our sins. Because, if Christ is not fully God and fully man, and in one substance with the Father, then His sacrifice counts for nothing. For if it had been transgressions alone that Christ came for, repentance alone would be enough. But it is not just transgressions alone that Christ came for. It was a sinful nature a nature of a corrupted fallen man that He came for. It was a nature of corruption, that by repentance (to turn from ones sins and stop sinning) alone will not suffice to heal. Because to merely stop sinning is for one impossible without Christ, but it does not fix the nature of corruption. That can only be fixed by Christ who is fully God and fully man. It had to be God and God alone to do this. Not a creation of His, that is why blood sacrifice in the Old Testament could only provide atonement for ones sins, the same goes with a Christ who is not begotten of God, who is not God. The reason God alone had to do this is because God alone is the only one who can turn us from the corrupted sinful nature to His nature, is because He is God, and who can be God except God? Now to address the mormon perversion of being made like Christ, being partakers of the divine nature, the nature of God. Mormonisim teaches that we can literally become Gods. Which is a perversion of what is taught Biblicllay and what the early church taught. Biblically the way it truly is, is that we turn from our sins and toward Christ and He makes us like Him, in nature. In the way we act the way we think but also in our heart the very core of our being, we are made to be men after God’s own heart, we are transformed form the inside out. We are made free from sin and like Christ, and it is a wonderful thing. Yet the mormon view perverts that in saying that we literally become Gods, that we are equal with Him, that is the very lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. Therefore the Mormon view is satanic and against God. I believe that more than adequately stands up to your arrogant dare. The Book of Mormon rejects the Trinity, therefore it rejects the atonement of our sins and our redemption. Because, only God can save man from his sinful nature, because only God is God. And to reject the doctrine of the Trinity is antichrist 1John 4:3 every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ not from God. This spirit is of the anti Christ, which you have heard was coming and is in the world already. The mormon doctrine is blasphemy against God, in the fact that it rejects the trinity and believes man can become gods. These unholy beliefs are against a holy and just God. And He will bring justice upon those who follow them. For these beliefs can only lead one strait into hell. I pray that God will bring you to truth and the truth will set you free. God be with you.
KYLE MORTON
2010/07/26 at 18:14